Monday, August 18, 2008

Right vs. Left

I've been thinking about this for a long time;

"Conservatives will sell their grandmothers for a dollar"

"Liberals want the government to run their entire lives"

(These are the polite comments :D)

My father (Whom is a Conservative) and I have been arguing over School vouchers. I (Moderate to partly Liberal), am against the School Voucher system. My father, is for them. We have gone round after round about this. Gotten into heated arguments that makes Maia cringe (since these arguments are all over Skype, when she is here, she doesn't have much choice but to listen in), and everything.

But one thing keeps making me pause; Dad is an intelligent man, certainly as intelligent as I. If I can see the problems with the voucher system, why can't he?

The voucher system in a nutshell: We all pay taxes, and then each parent gets a voucher for "Tuition", if you will. Then the parent can take his voucher and kid to any school he wants. That way if the Public School system is not doing a good job, you can take your kid elsewhere.

Pros: This system encourages competition, public schools will have to shape up fast to keep up with the private schools who will (In time) bring our children's average test scores back up.

Cons: If a monopoly occurs, competition ceases.

We don't actually argue the point, you see. What we really do is spend time slinging insults at each other. "Guy, you're being Naive! the Government hasn't changed in 200 years, why do you think it will suddenly straighten up and fly right now? By the time we straighten the government up, our kids will be complete idiots. You Liberals all think that the Government should just walk in to your lives and take it over."

To which I reply: "Dad, you can't give our children's future over to business, Think Microsoft; do you like Vista? No? Too Bad, Microsoft has paid a lot of money so that computers don't work with anything other than Vista... so, unless you want to work in the stone age, you have to have Vista. Is Vista the best OS? No. But you don't have a choice. (And before I get people telling me "Yes you do; you can go to Linux", in actuality, you can't. Many very specific programs I use can only be used on Windows. Switching to Linux would stop all work I'm doing completely... No one has ported some of the programs I use to Unix... and "Gimp" as wonderful as it is, was built expressly to NOT be Photoshop, so using Gimp means I would have to start at ground zero and relearn the program again from scratch). How, my dear father is Microsoft a good example of "Good Capitalism at work"? Would you really want to be forced to take your kid to "Microschool"?

He would then say: "Guy! People are graduating High School without being able to read their diplomas!"

But, I keep coming back to the same thought; "Dad is easily as intelligent as I..."

What is the REAL problem between dad and me?

We keep assuming strange things about the other; "Dad, you would rather have a "Clear Channel" school where everyone has to learn about the Bible (Because the Christian Churches were the best funded, and have run everyone else out of business), and evolution is banned rather than a system that is controlled by the Constitution and civil rights."

"Guy, you would rather let the government take care of you, even if they are so tangled up in beauracracy that they can't buy a pencil without going through 50 people, rather than give the parents the right to choose whom they want to teach their children."

And that is the problem; we get so mad (I mean that in the "Insane" sense, not the "Angry" sense), that we would rather instult each other than understand each other.

I wasn't looking to change dad, by the way. I just assumed that my belief that he was an idiot must be flawed, since I happen to know better. So I wanted to understand his side...

But I had to get past all this rhetoric first.

"Guy, come up with a better plan, then."

Dad, I'm sorry, but that's just provoking a fight; Brilliant minds, far superior to mine have been working this problem for thousands of years. You can't expect me to surrender my argument simply because I am not more intelligent that the cumulative history of the world.

Why don't we get to the bottom of this, find out where our real positions are, and then figure out a solution together?

Here's the way I see it: There are two kinds of core monitary democracies we can have:

Socialism: Everyone pays the government taxes, the government then provides services rendered (School, military, food, clothing, etc).

Capitalism: Everyone pays other people to render services.

Of course, there are flaws to both of these governments. That's why we are mixed (For example: the US doesn't have a capitalistic military (The government pays for it), but we do have a capitalistic medical system....)

The real difference between Liberals and Conservatives is in which one of these two evils they see as lesser.

Liberals seems to see socialism as the lesser of two evils, conservatives see capitalism as the lesser of the two.

Neither group really thinks that we should be all capitalist or all socialist. That's a pipe dream on both counts, the reason we are mixed is that neither system works well in reality. The best we can hope for is some semblance of balance.

Why is it, then, that when we argue, we constantly assume the other side WANTS to do bad things?

Doesn't it seem like that?

6 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

This one is easy: your Dad is totally right! ;-)

I entirely agree with all the arguments that you have presented on his behalf.

What I don't understand about your argument is this whole Microsoft school idea. Not everyone will want to have their kids educated by Microsoft. Not every kid will be "good" enough to enter a Microsoft school. Hence the beauty of voucher programs!

And if you really want to continue with your Microsoft example, aren't schools right now already owned by Bill? I mean, when was the last time that I saw a Mac in a school environment? Oh right, it was in a private school!

-- Mal.

11:52 AM  
Blogger Aabh said...

Well, actually, the point of my post was: both sides are right. But I can't make heads or tails of your post which means I'm not sure what you are talking about.... :)

Please clarify (I read: "If you are really lucky, your kid will not be good enough to go to Microschool, therefore you won't have to worry about your Voucher") This doesn't make sense, so I need you to be clear.


----

Let's set up a theoretical situation (This is the "Doom and Gloom" situation that the Socialists fear will happen):

2010: Vouchers are introduced
2011: Public schools fail because they really suck and can't compete
2012: all Public schools are gone
2013: there are 100 Capitalist schools, all competing for vouchers
2015: there are 50 Capitalist schools and 10 Super-Schools
2020: there are 10 Capitalist Schools and 1 Superschool: MicroSchool
2025: There is only Microschool, any new schools that start up are instantly bought out by Microschool. Anyone who won't be bought out finds a Microschool built right next door that runs them out of business within a couple of years. Ultimately there is no more competition. Because of this you can either educate your child at home or send them to Microschool.

-----

This is an extreme example, but it's not groundless. This is what "The other side" fears. They are right; This is the flaw with Capitalism, just like the flaw with Socialism is that it slogs down to complete inactivitiy.

8:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You can't expect me to surrender my argument simply because I am not more intelligent that the cumulative history of the world. "

This is an amazingly awesome quote!

Wow... just... wow.

On the subject in question, I firmly believe in classical 'many-firms' capitalism. Let the schools compete, but DO NOT let any monopolies form. That answer seems to server everyone's basic need, while making everyone not completely happy. The classic hallmarks of a good compromise.

~James
(one of the three who reads your blog!)

8:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the arguments against vouchers is that the really smart kids will end up going to school A, leaving the average/less than average intelligence kids going to schools B, C, and D. (At least, that is the argument in short, with several tangents being derived from it.)

I made the assumption, in your argument, that the Microsoft school was the school for "smart" kids. So, what I was saying was that, (a) not everyone will want their kids educated by Microsoft (kind of like not everyone wants their kids to go to an artsy or science school), and (b) not every kid will be good enough to enter a Microsoft school (making the assumption that the admission standards will get higher).

As to the second part of your comment. I've read it, and I would suggest that you do a bit more research on the subject. Studies show that, in most places where vouchers are put into place, the public schools rise to the challenge. They will modify/adapt/boost their curriculum to be able to compete with the "good" school that everyone wants to go to. In fact, in some jurisdiction, the private and/or "good" school had to shut down after a few years, because the other schools became that much more attractive to the public.

I am not sure why you are talking about public and "capitalist" schools. As far as I know, the USA only has public, private, and religious schools. What is a "capitalist" school in your opinion?

And the part that I totally agree on with your Dad is the abysmal quality of education that most Americans receive. I mean, just from personal experience, I know that Franke did not feel that his math education after grade 12 was strong enough to enter a first year university math class here in Canada (whereas he had no such issues in the US). He actually chose to redo his grade 12 math in Canada. And he apparently came from a "good" American school. In contrast, I came from a "good" Canadian school, and didn't really start feeling pressure until third year Calculus. And even then, it meant that I had to study for two days prior to the test versus the day before (as I did for Calc I and II).

Even being in Japan, I am sure that you must see that American education is not up to par with a lot of what is going on in the rest of the world. So, why not allow people to get the kind of education that they think they deserve, but cannot always afford?

-- Mal.

3:35 AM  
Blogger Aabh said...

James: You read my Blog! (HUG) (Don't you hate people who randomly hug people?). And: I think that is where I am, too.

Mal: You are totally illustrating my point...

In actuallity, I think vouchers may work, and since the Socialist sector hasn't done a good enough job, maybe we should try it (As James said: with a serious watchdog).

Confused? Then you didn't get the point of my post; I asked: "Why is it that "Understanding" must equal "agree"? All I have been saying this entire time was "I'm a liberal (socialist), and I think I understand the Conservatives (Capitalists)." I laid out both sides, I put the pros and the cons on there, and then (Just like dad), you start hitting me with these "You think the current system is GOOD?!?!", and "I would suggest that you do a bit more research on the subject" Statements.

I wasn't actually arguing about vouchers... I was using vouchers as an example of how I started to realize we are always either on one side or the other, and we seem to like to not understand the other side. Almost like we are afraid...

and now, I sorta see why: I simply said "I understand not wanting to make vouchers." and you (And dad) instantly went to "I AGREE with not wanting vouchers."

Why do we all do that (I do it too, I'm not picking on you, Mal)? It's not the best way to solve a problem, especially one so important; like education.

And: Vouchers are Capitalism; it's putting the responsibility in the hands of a business. Currently, the responsibility is in the hands of the government, that's Socialism. There isn't a third option (Well, there is; dictatoriship). American medical is Capitalized, Canadian medical is Socialized.

Anyway, the point was: We aren't allowed to understand anything. We are so afraid that if we get the other side of the argument, we instantly condone it. So we stay ignorant.

And, in an ironic twist this whole statement is proof of this fact... To make this argument, I can't use any examples... if I do, people clamp on to the example, and not the point...

P.S. I do love you, Mal (As I do Dad)

11:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I am against the school voucher system". Just thought that I'd point out that sentence to you before I move on.

I am starting to wonder, Guy, if the way you attempt to make "points" is a lot more clearer to you than to me.

I'll point out to you that I also listed "pros" and "cons" of vouchers in my reply. Yet, you don't see my view as being balanced. Why? Is it because I didn't use the words "pros" and "cons" like you did in your original post? Is it that you can't see/admit that I DO see both sides of the debate?

The thing is, Guy, as I see it, is that you want everyone to see both sides of everything. Fair enough. That would be a great thing. Your problem occurs that you aren't able to see that, having looked at both sides of a debate, someone may actually pick one side as being more reasonable than the other. I get the impression that your assumption is that if someone doesn't say "I like shades of grey", you automatically assume that they just didn't take the time to consider the other side.

That, and the fact that I honestly do not think that you are expressing yourself as clearly as you think that you are!

-- Mal.
(Yes, yes, this whole love thing is rather obvious and irrelevant at this point. But I love you too! :-))

1:38 PM  

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